What does the title Finding Beauty in Negative Spaces mean to you?

Shaun: Philosophy. It�s my philosophy on how to approach the way things have been going this year. I mean, as soon as we think we�re out of it, something bad happens: the guys from Red have a van accident or we�re playing in Portland and one of the security guys goes outside and has a heart attack in the parking lot. It�s just one thing after another. We played San Diego and the fucking crowd didn�t give a shit, I mean not at all. It�s been a bizarre year.

For me, it had a dual meaning and it certainly had a fine art reference. I studied jewelry and jewelry design and manufacturing and I did art. The importance of the negative space in a piece of art can sometimes outweigh the positive aspects. It�s just life philosophy. In San Diego, there were like 3,000 people in a 10,000 seat venue. If they don�t give a shit, then why should I give a shit? You finish a show and there�s maybe like a clap or two and that�s it, there�s dead silence. So you think it�s funny whereas before I�d get really miserable. I just thought it was hilarious. I mean, John was finishing songs making fart noises and you could hear it! I mean, I could hear our sound guy talking at the end of the arena to the guy next to him, laughing, and I was having conversations with my guitar tech while we were playing. The crowd so did not give a shit, eventually I was like well if you don�t give a fucking shit, I don�t give a fucking shit. There�s no point in me getting worked up and excited, trying to make you feel anything if all I�m getting back is apathy. I changed almost every lyric in every song to �apathy� and right at the end gave them a little bow and said goodnight. That city has always been a weird city for us to play in. I don�t know why, we�ve only had one good show there and that was four years ago, before John was even in the band. It�s one of those weird cities, man. It�s like New York, and even New York crowds are better than San Diego. I�ve played to that same shitty crowd a couple of times and I don�t even understand why. Maybe it�s not a very popular rock spot or, I don�t know, I just don�t get why some places are so apathetic while other places get so excited.

I�m originally from Dallas and Dallas shows sell out so fast.

Shaun: And Dallas crowds are great.

And out here in Phoenix, I�ve realized that the crowds may not be as big but the people that do come out are passionate.

Shaun: The first show we played here was to like 20 people. It was an acoustic gig, do you remember that shitty show we played, Dale? It was in the middle of summer and like 110 degrees outside at ten o�clock at night.

John: Well, one of the shows here was acoustic which kind of spawned the idea of One Cold Night. Remember, you were kind of sick on that run.

Shaun: Oh yeah.

John: And it was one of those acoustic shows we did with Shinedown which kind of snowballed into a few more shows.

Shaun: Yeah, I just don�t understand those other people. I mean, we had two girls lying there on the barricade sleeping.

Why the hell would you even go out if you were going to act that way?

Shaun: That�s the whole point! At least throw something at me, at least yell �Boo, I hate you, you suck,� something would be better than this apathetic dead response. To me, passion is more important than anything else. If you�re not gonna passionately dislike me, then fucking at least passionately do anything!

Dale: They just weren�t there to see us. It was with all punk bands like Angels and Airwaves and Bad Religion and Against Me! We were like the second band up and it�s like six o�clock at night. We played seven songs in 22 minutes. They�d sold like 1,800 tickets for the 10,000 seat arena so I think even the headliners had a terrible show. It was bad all around, especially for us since we were the only non-punk band and everyone there was punk fans or supposedly punk-rock fans. There was one girl and her boyfriend in front of me and they were singing every lyric so I just kept looking at them. And then there was a guy on the other side from South Africa and those three, man, they were loving it. It was awesome.

Shaun, I wanted to ask you about this and if you want to skip over it you are more than welcome, but I wanted to ask you about �Rise Above This� and your brother�s influence.

Shaun: Well, the song was written before [his passing], so there�s no posthumous connotation to it. But there�s definitely an application to it. I haven�t dealt with it yet.

Explain the reason behind the first single �Fake It.� I kind of interpreted it as a shot at all the bullshit people in, say, the L.A. scene.

Shaun: Well more than L.A. though, it�s everywhere now. There�re kids in middle America that are buying into the Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, fucking Britney Spears triple threat of vapid bullshit. The fact that Paris Hilton�s vagina is more important than Al Gore getting the Nobel Peace Prize, I think that if you went in a classroom and asked questions about stuff that mattered, they would know more US Weekly stuff. The fact that television shows are geared towards telling kids that they should get facelifts and boob jobs. I mean, shows like “I Want a Famous Face,” “My Super Sweet 16,” it�s these fucking spoiled brat bitches, 16 years old, freaking out because their 90,000 dollar Lexus isn�t blue but red. We�re breeding a culture of materialistic airhead kids and it�s terrifying. If you�ve seen the movie Idiocracy�

I was just about to mention that!

Dale: We love that movie. It�s great.

Shaun: It�s obviously an extreme but it�s certainly not far off the mark.

It�s easily the best social commentary I�ve seen in a long time.

John: The movie flopped because I don�t think a lot of people got it which is pretty sad or scary.

Shaun: Or that�s the sweetest irony of the thing. I keep going back to times like the Renaissance or any kind of time when cultural growth was celebrated and being smart is something you actually shoot for. Being educated, being worldly, reading books, being creative, being able to paint, draw, create anything out of nothing, that used to be celebrated. That�s so important to human development; music and school is being just kicked out the window. Music development is proven to make kids more well-balanced and smarter and all these things. It�s proven to be such a productive way to teach children anything. If you put the ABCs in song, they�ll learn them twice, three times, four times faster than if you just showed them on a piece of paper. I mean, there is a reason why “Sesame Street” has been so successful. It�s because of the fact that it uses music. There�s a new show called “The Backyardigans” that my son loves. You can�t turn it off, he�ll freak out. He�s just over one but, you know, it�s all song and imagery. It�s like those “Baby Einstein” DVDs, man. It�s all stimulation. We live in an age now where we dumb everything down and keep it as simple as possible. You know, put out Jessica Simpson with the worst lyrics in history. Anything that�s popular and does really well appeals to your inner fucking redneck or something. What happened to going to schools and saying, �You know what kids? It�s cool if you want to come to school and not wear what everyone else is wearing. It�s cool if you want to have a little book that you scribble in, if you aspire to be a dancer or a poet or any of those things.� I mean I don�t think I�ve met anyone who wants to do any of those things in so long because all you meet are those who want to try to go to Hollywood and make it. Make it at what, dude? Joining the fucking thousands of other wannabe actors and actresses that are serving lunch at the fucking Ritz? The whole shift has changed from becoming good, educated, smart people to �What can I get for as little effort as possible? How can I marry a rich man or woman so that they can fucking take care of me with their parents� money that they inherited?� It�s so sad and that�s why kids are shooting up high schools. It�s getting worse and worse and worse, I can imagine. I had thoughts like that when I was a kid, �I just want to go to school and take everyone out,� and I was pretty well-balanced. That�s getting worse, and the things people say to each other, and the way kids are just so consumed by materialism and commercialism, and if you don�t fit into that, man, I can�t imagine as a little 13, 14, 15 year old kid going through puberty, being confused as fuck, if you don�t want to feel like you belong with those people or you know you don�t and they keep ragging on you everyday, that�s what causes those kids to snap. And fucking parents not telling their kids it�s okay to be yourself, parents lying to their kids saying, �Oh you can totally be the President of this country.� Bullshit you can be the President of this country. You can�t. You have to be married in or be raised by a wealthy family that�s got the right connections. It�s not like anyone can become President. That�s crap. So I think parents are letting the TV raise their fucking kids, it�s the worst thing in the world. And with TV saying, �Hey be like everyone else� and parents going, �Oh I�m so tired, I can�t hang out with them,� it�s a vicious cycle. I don�t know, I just wish that there was a return�that�s why kids are like that with music downloads. It�s like, download, fuck yeah, it�s free, why not? It�s like, I�m going to come to your house and steal your favorite teddy bear, and then how are you gonna feel? It�s gonna hurt, it�s gonna suck, it�s gonna feel like shit if I come in and you�re freezing and I just take your blankets. You know? People just assume it�s okay because it�s there. The main thing, dude, is apathy, the fact that people don�t care about anyone. Selfishness and apathy. It�s like if you are walking down the street and someone is getting raped or beaten, how many people stop and help that person? I mean, you see it all the time, people don�t stop, people just walk by or they watch the fight. No one gets in to say stop. It�s bloodlust and the lowest common denominator. I don�t know, I would love to see modern artists and creative people. I have to hunt them down online in obscure websites and I find naked chicks, “Girls Gone Wild,” that pops up there. That�s just the sad world we live in, that beer and tits are more important than politics and social upbringing, business ethics, all these things. It�s just idiocracy, man. It�s a slow, downward spiral. Unfortunately, I don�t even think it�s that slow. Statistics that I�ve been reading say there�s an 18 percent decrease in average SAT scores or whatever, stuff like that. That�s terrifying, man. It�s supposed to get better as the years go by, not worse. But let�s go out and fight a fucking war and forget the education system, it�s just ridiculous.

And I always end with: do you have any advice for aspiring musicians?

Shaun: I don�t have any advice that doesn�t sound super cynical. How about always shower with flip flops on.

Dale: That�s a good one. Carry hand sanitizer on your belt. Give us one more, Johnny.

John: Always change the oil in your van.

Dale: If you get really drunk, always sleep on your side.

And watch Idiocracy.

Dale: Yes, that�s important.